Episode 13: Empowering Educators: Recognizing Workplace Bullying, Harassment, and Discrimination

Alright, y'all, before we start, because some of y'all be tripping under the advice of counsel, I gotta add that the views, thoughts, opinions that are expressed on this podcast are mine and mine alone. They do not represent my employer. Alright, let's go. I still is my because I was like, damn, do we really want to get into this discussion? Because if we get into this discussion right here, y'all human just what's up, y'all? Welcome back to another episode of Richmond Force Finance, the podcast. And we are going to continue a conversation that we had last week. We got the HR queen, Ms. Ty with Workforce Equity Solutions, because she was giving us so much game and she started getting amped up, but we had to cut her back on the time, but we promised that we would have her back. And so now she's back with us and we are going to continue our conversation on all things HR guys. This conversation is so important. It's so important for us to help you guys be empowered with information that can help you when you are faced with workplace issues and you don't know what to do, how to handle those things, and how to recognize them, and how to know that you're being discriminated against or harassed or bullied. So a lot of y'all be sitting on cases with y'all's companies or y'all school dishes and don't even know it. So Ms. Ty with Workforce Equity Solutions is back to give us all the tea, give us all the game. So, first question, and I think a lot of people always say Ms. Ty is, am I being harassed at work? We like to think we're getting picked on and sometimes it's just our subjective right. We would think that, oh, my boss doesn't like me, my supervisor doesn't like me. They're just picking on me because of this. But how can we recognize what true workplace bullying and harassment is? I got a lot of questions for you today, so I hope you ready to talk to me. All right, so how do we recognize or define what workplace bullying and harassment is? So, number one, I want to start out by saying that harassment and bullying, believe it or not, is not illegal. However, it does become illegal when you're being harassed based on your race, national origin, all of those things that are protected under the Civil Rights Act. When we talk about harassment, what does that look like? As an HR professional, what's very important to me is, number one, to be trusted. And we see that often in job descriptions. We're looking for a trusted HR professional, but really, the organization is looking for an HR professional that they can trust for them. For them to work for them. Yes. Let's be clear. And so when we talk about harassment and what does that look like? It could look like increased surveillance. So something that meeting with, say, you're conducting a one on one with, say, a subordinate or your subordinates, and then all of a sudden, your manager is joining in on those one on ones. They're not doing it with anyone else. That's when it becomes discriminatory. Okay. Because now I'm singled out. So when we talk about bullying in the workplace, right now, we're hearing the word mobbing. So when the bullying starts to take place, perhaps the manager may not bully that person themselves, but they may assign someone to bully you. Whole click thing, I've had that happen so many times. And that's why we're saying now it becomes a mob. Because now, basically, they have all of. Their we call them the minions, the principal's minions. Yeah, to come after you. They have the minions to come after you, and then it's their army, which we call now is basically workplace mobbing. So it shows up that way. But harassment can be subtle. It could be overt. But I think that in those situations, when you start to feel that something is different and that you're treated different because of whatever reason, especially if it fits under those categories of the Title Seven Civil Rights Act, you want to make sure that you start documenting, document, document. I see you back with your T shirt, but did you document it? You back with your documentation. That's what I want to know. So can you give us some examples of workplace bullying and harassment that are specific to the education sector, like in your area of expertise, being an HR director of a local school district? What are some examples of workplace bullying and harassment that you have seen or that have come across your desk? Well, I'll say that a situation where, let's say you've assigned this person in a particular position, and you've decided, I think, that you need additional training. So then you demote that person. Not officially, but perhaps you decide if this person is an administrator. But you know what? I think that you need some additional training. So I'm going to place you in the classroom. But on paper, I'm still listed as an administrator. I'm still paid as an administrator, right? Okay. So things like that really build up, because that can be very humiliating and demeaning. That was my next question. I wanted to say, how does that impact the teacher, but more specifically, the environment, the learning environment of those students when things like that happen? Because if I'm an unhappy teacher or disgruntled teacher, how productive am I going to be in the classroom with those students? Absolutely. I think that it impacts our psychological safety to perform our jobs, because then we begin to second guess ourselves and question ourselves. But we're noticing, and haven't we all seen this before, where I'm being asked to do this, do this, do that if you want to. What we'll hear is we'll document this person out. I think that we're having some challenges here. You're not performing in this area. So here comes the Pip. That performance improvement plan. So I'm going to Pip you on out of here. And that's how that documentation trail starts. That's kind of the harassment part, too, because now every single thing, because I am gun hole on getting paper, putting pen to paper on you. So every little thing, I'm going to start documenting. Absolutely. What happens is most systems, we have a progressive disciplinary process. And what that looks like is, okay, so the first time you give that person a warning, the second time, okay, it's in writing. The third time, okay, this is your final. And then that fourth time you're out. And so I think that what we have to pay attention to is this only happening to me. So when we think about the harassing and the bullying, because most employers have anti bullying policies and stuff on the. Wall looking all cute, yes, but are they equitably enforced? And that's what we really need to pay attention to when they're not equitably enforced? Or is the enforcement perhaps more punitive on one particular group than the other? Okay, so that brings me to my next point. But I want to slide something in there before I get to that, because I know we're talking about schools and teachers in education, but I want to be clear that people that are paraprofessionals or other school support staff, they are heavily impacted by this too. And so I know oftentimes a lot of them may feel like, oh, this doesn't apply to me, or they're not going to care about me because I'm just the custodian or I'm just the cafeteria worker. But no, this is something that they need to be listening to as well, because this impacts everybody. Not only in a school system, but just, I think, in corporate America, period. This is a conversation that everybody needs to hear because we are all so unaware when it comes to our workplace rights because absolutely, our entities bullying us. In a sense, you're right, this is applicable in any industry. This could certainly happen, the harassment and the bullying. I think that now what we're seeing a lot of is the microaggressions. We had an episode, episode eight, I think we talked about that. Yes. With the corporate Karens and the Edgy Karens and those microaggressions. Yes. So that's come across my desk as well. And it can be a very difficult situation because obviously the first thing that anyone would say advise them to do is, hey, take it to HR. And so oftentimes those situations come across our desks and we flag our risk management because we're not sure if this can become a legal issue. I will speak very candidly and say that unfortunately, oftentimes where this could be very true and this could be something that's happening but then somehow the tables turn and the person that's receiving the harassment becomes the target and becomes the problem. And so in those situations, I think it's very important that if this is happening to you, then document every single incident that's occurring. Dates, document everything, because you never know. As you mentioned earlier, this could certainly become a situation where your civil rights have been violated. So let's talk about the importance of documentation. All right. We know that documentation in these instances can support our claims if we ever have to file one, provide evidence in helping us support our claims. But I don't think a lot of people know what exactly they should document, how they should document, what to include in the documentation. I'm going to keep picking on your shirt because you got it, but did you document it? HR Life. Hashtag HR life. I love it. So I know I always talk about my mom, and my mom was in corporate America. My mom retired corporate America for hell all my life. She just retired probably about a year ago, and she was heavy into that when I was started telling her things, because I had an incident with a principal, and I think that's kind of what launched my social media fame, is the Story series I told about this toxic principal that I worked for. And when I was telling my mom everything that was happening, number one, I had to keep my mom from coming up there to fight her because my mom went Mama mode. She was ready to come square enough with that lady. But my mom would, okay, come out of mama mode and go into corporate mode and like, okay, well, you need to do this to that. Document every single thing she says. I don't care if and she always tell me, keep your big journal at home. Don't leave any of that stuff at work to where if they automatically come and lock you out your classroom one day, they can say that that belongs to them or that's district property. So my mom would say things like, keep sticky notes, write things down on sticky notes, and put them in your pocket. When you get home, transfer them immediately to your book of notes or stick them in there for that page. My mom would say, I don't care if you had a document. She had on red finger polish, white sandals, and a black dress today. And we talked in the hallway in front of the girls restroom downstairs. My mom said, every single detail that you can remember, as soon as you're done with that conversation, go document it. So talk to us about how to document what to document. Should we be documenting on a thing like a Google Doc on a district property? Like, give me the tea on documentation so we can help the people? Absolutely. I think that documentation is so important who, what, when, and where? Because usually those are the questions that we ask during investigations. We want to know who was involved, what happened, where did this happen? We want to know all the w's. And so in those situations, you want to make sure that you're definitely documenting the dates. Keep that on a private, personal device, okay? No district property, guys. No district no district property. Keep that information for your own safekeeping. And I think that really and truly, that documentation can become your evidence to refer back to, because sometimes you don't know how big your story is until you start writing it out. So it's very important that in the event that situations occur where you believe that your rights are being violated, you're experiencing harassment and bullying to make sure that you're documenting who was there, because it could very well become a situation that if this become a lawsuit, I may then have to contact witnesses. And so you want to make sure that you document who was present during that situation, because that can also help you in your case if it couldn't be resolved within your organization. So documentation is super important. I advise that even with our leaders in the organization, in the event that something happens, we need full documentation. The first conversation that I have with someone, the first thing that I say to them in that conversation, I should say is, tell me what happened, and I want a statement now. Provide me with that settlement right now, because everything's fresh. But I will tell you, in situations of harassment and bullying, sometimes it's overtime. It's not just one incident. So true. And so it's important for you to just keep a diary of what's happening so that if there is a case and you end up having to file a complaint with the EEOC, you have all of your documentation prepared to present to that EEOC investigator. So speaking of having all of your documentation ready to turn over, when we file a complaint, and I am a person that has had to file a complaint against an administrator and HR asks for our documentation, first of all, we got to get over this whole stigma. We don't like you all. We ain't rocking with HR because we already know off the top that HR is not there for us. HR is there to protect the entities or to protect the districts or to protect the businesses. They are not there to protect us. You all are there to make sure that they do nothing to get them sued, right? So when it comes to being to facing workplace issues and knowing that HR is the first step that we have to take, how do you guys deal with the apprehension of educators to come to you all and say, hey, this is happening to me? Especially in districts where there are a lot of small districts and a lot of connections around here, especially where school district, everybody's friends like we're talking about, we hang out. The superintendent and the HR directors hang out at Christmas parties together. Their families go on vacations together, principals and HR people. So how can the teachers trust that you're going to handle their situation with fairness and with an unbiased look? That's a very good question, and that's a very good point, because what we do know is that oftentimes these environments can be very incestuous. And so you never know the relationships. And so it is very important that perhaps when you share information because again, I will say this, many of my colleagues are amazing. And I tell you, they operate with the highest level of integrity, and everything in terms of how we function as HR professionals is based on facts. We want to hear the facts of a situation. Now, I will tell you that if you believe that you're being targeted, perhaps by a senior leader, that it would probably be within your best interest to hold back on some information. Still, write it down, but don't say that this is what's happening when you file your initial complaint. Absolutely. Okay. And I'm just really just giving you the real. That's what we need. You really have to step back and say, okay, I want to see first what will you do with this information before I provide the full scope of what's taking place here. And so if I know as a human being or as a teacher that I'm coming to you and I provide you with this information, and I continue to see the same behavior, then that informs me that there's something else possibly happening here. And so I think that you want to maybe provide them with a summary of what's happening, and then it's up to them, if they decide to dig deeper on the issue and really investigate all the parties involved. And you could see that, hey, this person is truly attempting to resolve this issue between us, then I think that I would trust that person to do the right thing. But whatever you do in that conversation, you follow it up in an email and recapping the conversation that you had with that individual. Okay? So you just hitting all the points before I can even get to them. This is great. So two things. When handing over your documentation, I think it's also important I'm not an HR professional. I'm just giving my mama jewels that people need to understand to never turn over their personal documentation. You never turn over your original things, right? So if HR wants a story or you write a statement or you're getting ready to send them an email with all of your documentation attached, never hand them your journal, your only copy of the evidence that happened. So I think it's important for us to tell educators, especially the newbies coming up in the game, Google Docs. Are your friends running a running doc of everything that's going on? Yes. You can have your sticky notes or the notes that you jotted down on your pin and pad, but those are things you don't turn over. You always turn over an electronic copy of something. And then another jewel my mom told me is that when you're emailing people, when you're having an email exchange about some things that may not be going the correct way, blind copy your personal email address. Because I've seen situations, I'm sure you can probably attest to this as well, where a teacher goes under investigation and they're automatically shut out of every single thing. They can't get access to their laptop. They don't get access to the district's network. Everything is gone. And so while you're sitting at home on leave trying to dig up your evidence to fight your case, it's all locked in a district computer that you no longer have access to. But if you had the same all the communications in your own personal email, you could always get to them as well. You're absolutely right. I think that in a perfect world, we want to believe that team, everyone's going to do the right thing and everyone's going to tell the truth. But unfortunately, that's just not always the case. So it's really important that you protect yourself and that you have a copy of whatever information, but be very careful about the information that you're forwarding yourself to make sure that this is an information that's protected. Protected. Especially if you work for a school district, you want to make sure that you're not violating any that long privacy. At the end of those emails. Exactly. So you want to be very careful in what information that you're sharing and retrieving. I like to say that I just take really good notes. Okay. So I would just encourage to make. Sure that you all didn't catch that, did you? We sent ourselves the copy of the email. We're not saying that we sent ourselves a copy of the email. These are all great notes that we took when we met. So let's go back to meeting. Right? So when we talk about how to properly communicate with you guys when we meet right now, I'm going to go back to my situation before it even got to HR and me filing the grievance against this administrator for the foolishness that she had going on on that campus. How many times I was called into the office, harassed, bullied, until I started saying, hey, I'm going to record this conversation. So how important is recording a conversation? I know Texas is a one party consent state. Absolutely. So I don't have to let you know that I'm recording because I'm a part of the conversation. But this is my understanding, and I don't know. You have to help me on this one. If I want to use this against you, I have to let you know that you're being recorded. Is that how it works? Well, I'm not an attorney, so let me just disclose that disclaimer. Yes. And so in those situations, oftentimes your attorney, if you're ever in that situation. And you have an attorney, usually any information that each side would have, they would go through a process called discovery, okay? And so that would be how you would retrieve that information, or they could retrieve information that you have as well. But you're right, you need to know the laws in your state. So in the event that you're not allowed to record someone without their permission, that you disclose that. But if you are, that's your personal. Business and your good notes. Exactly. So, Texas, we hear this all the time when we're talking about all the crappy things that's going on in the state of Texas. And other people, other teachers from other states are like, oh, well, what does your union rep say? What does your union rep say? And Texas teachers are like, look here, y'all, we tired of telling you all we don't have that like you all have. We are at will, right to work state, y'all's. Union representation may be hard in California or in New York or in Jersey, but Texas they Laugh so even though we pay union dues, in a sense, we're really paying an organization. Like you said on a previous episode or AJ said, I believe it kind of goes into a pile and that person is almost like a case worker. They pick up your case and maybe 30 of you that are filing grievances all across this district, and I'm the one person assigned to go through all of your stuff and tell you, now you don't have a case, or, oh, yeah, you may have something and we can fight for you. But what is the role of union representation when it comes to this meeting? These meetings are involving union representation. When do teachers need to know, hey, this may not be a battle that you're equipped to fight, you need to get somebody else in here to assist you? Well, that's a great question. Unions are very interesting, and I had a client recently that I was working with and I'm continuing to work with, where there was a union, and unfortunately, that union representative did not follow all of the procedures in place. So we hope that they're going to do the right thing. But I will say this, and I do believe this, because I don't want to come across as organizations are just out there to get you. But I do believe that, number one, there are great HR professionals that are there to do the job and to do the right thing and that operate with the highest level of integrity. However, when it comes to unions, you just never know the relationships again, it goes back to the relationships. We want to believe that this person is truly here to represent me. Are you there? We sometimes find out this is a career opportunity for them. This is how they're building their career. A ladder. A step in the ladder, right? Yeah. And we never know the relationships that they have with the school officials. We just never know. And I will say that in this particular case, the process was not communicated to this particular employee. And in the event that you're experiencing discrimination or harassment or retaliation in the workplace, you really need to report this to HR within 45 days of this occurring. Okay. Because this can ultimately impact your case, because what legal teams are looking for are procedural errors to win their case if you truly have a case against them. So your case could be a million dollar case, but you 47th day instead of the 45th day. Bingo. And that's the technicality that can get your stuff thrown out. Exactly. And I want to share that with for example, let's just say that this is a situation of harassment, retaliation, discrimination, TWC. If you live in the state of Texas, you can actually file a claim through TWC under 180 days. Texas Workforce. Texas Workforce Commission. Yes. And so what happens when you file that discrimination claim with TWC? Texas Workforce Commission. It automatically sends it to the EEOC. Oh, wow. Okay. Now, the EEOC, you receive up to 300 days. But with Texas Workforce Commission, it is 180 days. But these are things that when we sign up for our jobs, we're so excited. We get our employee handbook, and we just sign off on it, everything. And we're not reading anything absolutely. Until we need them and know that those policies are written to protect the employers, the company. Exactly. So let's talk about I want to get back into the EEOC and that whole process, but let's talk about how we can help the listeners recognize the different forms of the various forms of discrimination, how to identify if they are being discriminated against. I know we have, like, gender, race, nationality, origin, disability. I don't know. But how can we help them recognize if they're being discriminated against? And then if you could remember some situations that have possibly come across your desk from teachers where they have had valid claims of discrimination. Yes. And so I want to just be very clear. The Civil Rights Act, it states that it prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin in a situation where there's harassment or bullying that's taking place, what you need to pay very close attention to, if these things are happening to you based on that criteria, okay? So that's how you're protected under that law. But then there are also other organizations, the labor association. So it could be a labor violation, so it may fall under that particular act. So that's why if a person you mentioned about the EEOC process, I want to just say that if a person is experiencing, say, some form of discrimination, they believe that they're being harassed or bullied because of that particular criteria. When you log on to the EEOC site, you actually take an assessment and they ask you all the questions. Yes. So basically, if it doesn't qualify under that particular law, it will refer you. Okay, so that's the first phase of that. But yes, in the event that this is happening, I think what's really important is making sure that you put it in writing, right. And you must do that because you want to give your organization an opportunity to address it. And it sounds like you did do that with your experience and it was addressed hopefully, maybe that's another podcast. That's another podcast. She was promoted up several times. Still. They're ruining people's lives. Okay. If I see her on the streets, it's on site. But anyway, sorry, let me get back into my professional let me get back into my professional mode. I think it's easy. A lot of teachers. I've had several teachers, social media teachers, friends of Mines that have been friends of mine, not just their minds, friends of mine that have been pushed out of their schools, pushed out of their organizations, especially with the rise of social media and teachers being more vocal about things that they're experiencing in the public education system. And so finding those little bitty, tiny ways to push a teacher out. And so helping teachers recognize the importance of policy. When they give you those employee handbooks, read them. Absolutely. When they give you your contracts, read the fine print before you sign them. When they have Texas education code or the teacher responsibilities, I can't remember the name of it. I just took the test and passed it. I don't even know. But how you should read through all of those things because your handbook may say, oh, teacher must adhere to all the teacher ethics and responsibilities listed out in TEC 9.20. And you sign off on it, right? You don't have no idea what that code, what that regulation is, but you sign off saying, hey, I understand, and then when you go pull that code, when they hold it against you because they're always going to use policy against you. It's something as simple as you could only have two restroom breaks and you took three, but you unprofessional. Unprofessional behavior. What is unprofessional behavior? So I think that's important that we have to make sure that teachers are crossing their T's dotting their I's, to protect themselves as well, because what you don't want to do is to give them ammunition to be able to use against you. And so I think that's what a lot of my teacher friends are experiencing. Now. It'll be real one reason why we really want to get rid of you, but we're going to paper and ping you on something as, hey, lesson plans are

00 a.m. On Sunday mornings, even though that's your time. But

00 on Sunday morning. So now you're not following campus policies and procedures. Campus rules and procedures, and we're going to go ahead and start pipping you up out of here. So something as simple as that. So speaking of that, let's get into the topic of wrongful termination and unfair treatment. All right? So what constitutes as, first, unfair treatment? And that can be subjective. Subjective. And so when we talk about wrongful terminations, really, it's unlawful termination. Because as you mentioned earlier, that Texas is an atwell state as many other states. However, if you unlawfully terminate someone, then it becomes a litigious issue. Okay? And so that's what we need to really pay attention to. Again, that's why that law is so important. But I will tell you that the US. Has the worst well employment laws in comparison to other countries. And so I'm working with an organization right now in Massachusetts on a bill on protecting psychological safety in the workplace, anti bullying and harassment. And it's really tough because we know that these corporations, they really run. The. Politics, all of their paying, a lot of our senators and congress, folks, everybody. Is well connected, right? And so we never know who's in the bed with who. And so when you bring a situation to someone, I have to say this, it's very important that you know who the players are because and I want everyone that's listening to hear this, you can be the best. You can do the best. And sometimes it's not enough, and it's not you. And I think that when these situations happen, it's traumatizing. And we're constantly questioning ourselves, what did I do wrong? And it has nothing to do with what you did wrong, because if someone wants you out, they're going to get they can create a narrative, mischaracterize a situation, and they will get you out. They will take a chance because they're reckless, even if it's unlawful. And I won't say the organization, but these types of leaders, they're contemplating, we're too big for you to fight us, right? We're going to exhaust all of your resources. You're a teacher with municipal pay. Absolutely. You have no resources to fight us, right. Or you'll be too intimidated to even attempt exactly. To fight us. It's easier for you to leave. And that's why earlier in our conversation, we talked about documentation and how important that is. And that's when you'll need that documentation in the event that you've exhausted all of your resources to address this issue. But you want to make sure within 45 days of that situation happening that you contact HR. You put it in writing, a follow up has taken place so that you have your documentation. If that doesn't help, then you contact HR again and say, I would like to file a formal grievance. Okay? And usually most organizations have different levels of grievance, right? So you go through that grievance process because in the event that you decide as a Texas employee that you want to take your situation to tea. Tea will want to know that you've. Exhausted level 1234 before you got to them. Exactly. So are there and this is probably another gym that I've learned throughout my 20 plus years in education in order to get HR to look at your complaint, seriously, there are some trigger words that you should use in your initial complaint. Correct me if I'm wrong or tell the people what the trigger words are. I've been taught that the trigger words are bullying, harassment, hostile work environment, discrimination based on race, gender, origin. What are some trigger words that will get HR to be like, okay, we got to go ahead and move forward with this and not just put it on the back burner. All of that. All of that. And especially when someone cites title Seven. The Civil Rights Act. Write that down. Yes. That's really important. And especially if you have the evidence to show that you've been discriminated against based on this reason where you can provide them compare another employee that happens to be, say, another gender or race or whatever you believe that how you've been discriminated against, that you can demonstrate. This was my situation. This was their situation. This was the outcome for them, and this was the outcome for me. This is why they don't like us talking. Absolutely. We can compare stories, and you can't stop employment from having those conversations because that's against the law. Oh, wow. Because it's basically you unionizing, so you cannot prevent employees from having a conversation. Let's just say that there was something that was unsafe. You can't prevent employment from having that conversation, just like you can't prevent employees for sharing their wages, their salary. So you can't just unlawfully terminate someone. And I think what happens is because we have sometimes leaders that are emotional and where your emotions oh, my God. Control you in situations. That's what gets them in trouble. And so what happens in these situations is that now they're emotionally charged, and then it becomes personal. Right. And so once it becomes personal, it's so important that you're documenting all of these situations because you may think that they're small, and then you realize, wow, this is really happening here. So in the event where you believe that your rights have been violated, you may want to speak with an attorney. And also, let's talk about the fact that most folks can't afford hiring an attorney. So you can call me hello? Call you? And workforce equity solutions that help you out. I love that. Call me. So I'm going to go back to episodes eight, and I believe it's episode ten of the podcast, episode eight, where we talked about corporate and educating so how black women are faced with microaggressions in the workplace. And then when we had the episode ten of the Father's Day, I had some of the black men in here talking about some of the micro, really macro aggressions that they'd experience. And so when things like this happen to you, a lot of people are, number one, unaware that it falls into one of these categories that we are speaking of right now. But there are two that are kind of, like, in shock, like, wait a minute, did this really just happen, or do I even have anything? So let me give you two quick examples in case you hadn't caught up on those episodes. So episode eight, we had a lady on that was an educator. That is an educator, and she was pregnant at the same time as her white counterpart. Both pregnant ladies at the same time. When it was time for star testing, one was given the duty to sit in the hallway because she could be close to the restroom. She could monitor. She didn't have to be on her feet all day and deal with the stress. The other black woman was given a group. Given a group with the extended time, of course, made to stand on her feet all day, because when you're actively monitoring the star, you cannot sit down, or you got to try to sneak a seat on the desk. And that was the start of that. So we were like, that's not right. Either you all both should be given restroom duty, or you all both should be given testing duty because you all are literally the same type of pregnant. Now, I know people can get into the whole technicalities of, oh, maybe her doctor had written her a note or whatever, but we knew what time it was. So then they both kind of went out on maternity leave at the same time, came back at the same time, and both needed to nurse. Okay. And one, a whole build out was made for one to have a private nursing area with a sink and everything. The other was told, can't you just pump in the storage closet? So not at the time, not recognizing, you know, it's not right or it's unfair. But you say unfair is not illegal, but is that a discrimination? Could that be considered discrimination? Absolutely. And I wanted to bring up I'm glad you brought that up, because just this year, what just passed was the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act of 2023. Okay. And so as an HR professional, it's very important that we stay up to date on these laws. Yes, ma'am. Because we talk about Ada accommodations, and that's what it sounds like. And typically, Ada did not protect women during pregnancy because pregnancy, it wasn't considered a disability. It's a condition. But that's only if you hadn't had children. We know as parents, mothers that have given birth, that our body goes through significant changes, trauma. Exactly. And we definitely can't function sometimes at the same level. Right. But we are capable of completing our essential job. What do you mean? You're a black woman. You better you should be able to do with superpowers. We're not going there right now. Let me just take it there, because I think that, again, when we talk about that empathy, when I'm having a conversation with, let's say, someone that might be white or someone that might be African American, I think that my empathy, thermometer my emotional intelligence is really high. Okay. And so I'm in tune with that, and I'm also in tuned when someone's not in tune with that. And we have to be careful because as an HR professional and what we know in history, the expectations of black women has always been different from the fields to the boardroom. Yes, ma'am. Unfortunately, the treatment has been very similar. Back in slavery, you have that baby. The expectation is you have that baby, you put that baby on your back, and you get back in the fields and you keep picking that cotton. And that's sometimes the same mentality for African American women. That when they complain and they say, I'm hurt. I'm not well. And you may have a white counterpart that say, my dog is sick today, I need to stay home. Yes. And so that lack of empathy, because there are always different standards and expectations of black women versus white women. And that's just the honest God. Not that this even has anything to do with this episode, but I think we kind of talked about it on episode six, I believe, but how now that same expectation is being placed on our black children in schools. I can give you examples of countless times I've received emails from parents that said, hey, we've had our cat for 13 years, and we're having to put our cat to sleep. And so could you excuse them from doing homework this week or excuse them from that test? But I could have an African American child or Hispanic child whose parent just passed away or parent just got sentenced to prison, and they're not given that leniency. And so it goes so much, even though anyway, let's get back on. It's frustrating. It is very frustrating. It's frustrating. But I think it's an issue, and it's a conversation that does need to be had. Because when we think about the impact that African American professionals, particularly experience in the workplace, and because we're talking about schools in the field of education, my thinking as a parent is that as an organization, if you're not equipped to equitably treat your African American employment fairly right. Why would I trust you with my child? Hello? So I think that these things are parallel, and we probably can look at data that their experience probably mirrors one another in terms of the opportunities that they have as a student as well as the opportunities that they have are the way that they're treated as an employee. Right. So when we go back to wrongful, I'm sorry, you said lawful, unlawful termination. It's truly unlawful, unlawful termination. And if they want to get you out, they're going to get you out. And let's talk about the retaliation aspect of it. What does retaliation look like? I'm going to go give you a second example from the men, the gentleman that spoke on that episode about the things that they had experienced. And one story, I'll tell it quickly, is a paraprofessional. But parents own businesses and came for money. He had a side business that was really his main source of income, but his dream was to always coach. And of course, the coach, you got to go get your teacher certification. So he was in the process of getting his teacher certification, but to go ahead and get a foot in the door of the school system. He was a paraprofessional, but always dressed really nice, had a nice car, long dreadlocks, gucci this, gucci that. And so one day during lunch duty, the white female administrator on duty said, do you sell drugs or something? How do you get all the things that you get? And so she kept picking on him, saying those little things like that. And we would say, hey, that's not cool. You need to go report that. Because if you had said something like that to her, she would report you. So we need to start playing the same game. You need to go report, report. So I think finally he didn't report on paper. He ended up saying something. And then what happened? Here comes the weaponized. Tears. I'm the victim. And so now, because I'm in a position of authority and I'm over you, I'm an overseer of your black body, I'm now going to go ahead and start putting pens of paper. And so the things that he endured, minor things that added up over time until he ended up having to go ahead and file something with human resources. But just how when your behavior is corrected, when I correct you and tell you you do not have agency over me, you don't have control over me, you don't get to say those things to me, or I'm putting you on notice that I don't appreciate you saying those things to me. Now the roles are switched. I'm a victim, and now I'm about to pay for and pin you up out of here. And so let's talk about retaliation. DeFrances is telling me I need to hurry, so let's talk about retaliation. Like, what does that look like? And what recourse do educators have when they feel like they're being retaliated against for lodging a complaint against their administrator? Retaliation is definitely it can be tracked. And I think that oftentimes because those individuals that are responsible for the retaliation, typically it's in emails. And now there are some that are a bit more savvy and it's verbal communication. And again, this is why it's important for you to document those situations. Like, if you know that, let's just say, oh, gosh, this occurred with this particular staff member today, and they did something. And I won't just give just because I'm thinking of some real examples. I know you got some stories. I have to be very careful. Yes, you do. I want to play with people. I'm the only one whose job can be on the line over here. Let me just say this. Pay attention to the proximity of events. So if you know that that teacher say that they made that comment on this particular day, and then once that person reported that incident to someone these. Things, that's when all of a sudden, they became the worst employee in the building, right? So pay attention to the proximity, because any other time, no one had anything to say. No one said anything about his car. No one cared about his appearance. No one cared about any of those things. So pay attention to the proximity of the actions that's taken after someone perhaps reports an incident, and that will inform you if retaliation is happening. Because if it wasn't happening before, and all of a sudden now I'm getting pulled into the got a better case about petty little things, right? Then you can show that this has never happened before. Also, if others let's talk about others that drive nice cars, right? Are we having conversations with them and asking the principal and other professionals, oh, do you sell drugs? How could you afford that car? Right? So we have to pay attention. Is this just happening to me? Because that's when it becomes discriminatory. And remember all these claims. If you're filing a discrimination claim, then it has to fall under Title Seven, okay? The Civil Rights Act. Got it? Okay. So let's move on to talk about I want to talk about the EEOC complaint process, but before I talk about the EEOC complaint process oh, forget it. Let's just talk about the EEOC complaint process when it's time to file an EEOC complaint. While you were talking, something else just popped in my mind, and I said, oh, I need to talk about I need to ask her this before we move on to the EEOC complaint. But I got a complete brain for it. I don't even remember what I was getting ready to say. So let's go ahead and move on to understanding the EEOC complaint process. So let's explain to the people the role of the EEOC. And then what's the general process of filing an EEOC complaint? So the EEOC is the Equal Opportunity Commission? Basically. And so that agency is in position so that in the event that there is a discrimination complaint that you need to file, that you could file that charge. You can file your charge online, or you can file your charge in person. But if you file your charge in person, just understand, make sure you go to the website. Because in the event I've heard some of my clients report back that they only take four people a day, four walk ins a day. Oh, wow. And you have to be there before 830 in the morning, and that's here in Houston. Like, the Social Security office get up early. Right. And everyone is standing in this long line that are waiting for passports, immigration. So everyone's standing in this line. So what's advised, if you want to be that fourth person, you probably want to be there in that line at around 630 in the morning. Oh, my God. So you're standing in that line until you can get through the doors and then get upstairs, because by 830, that's their cut off in terms of taking walk ins. However, once you get entered their website and you complete their assessment, then that assessment will determine whether or not you possibly have a complaint that could be filed through the EEOC. Okay? So the next step is scheduling an interview. And that interview, you will meet with an EEO investigator. Okay. And so in that process, that's when you will present all of your information, your evidence to that investigator. But I want to say, I strongly encourage that before anyone decides to move through that process, make sure that you've exhausted all the resources within your school or within your organization first, because that. Could be used against you as well later on if you didn't follow through all the inappropriate proceedings. Yes. If the EEOC determines and say because they may also in that process, say that, would you both like to participate in our mediation process? And so in that termination process, both parties come to the table. But know that when everyone says, I'm going to call the EEOC, I'm going to the EEOC, the EEOC is like a neutral party, okay? They're not there to really especially that EO investigator, they're not there to serve as counsel for you. Okay. However, if your case is so overwhelming and I want to say that because they're so backlog, literally, you probably need a case where someone had a noose hanging around someone's neck for them to take it, because there's something that was. A slam dunk right. That they know that they'll win the case. But in the event that you receive a letter from the EEOC and they give you your Right to sue letter, you have 90 days from the date that you open that document and you receive it to file your lawsuit against that organization. So Right to Sue, I've gone through all of the steps with the EEOC. EEOC has investigated every single or may not have or may not have investigated the documentation that I provided them, and then Right to sue is telling me, okay, you have enough information here that you could possibly file a lawsuit or you have a claim. Basically, how that letter reads is that they're not advising you that there are grounds, but they're not stating that the employer did not violate any civil rights or have any employment violations. They're just there to say there could be a possibility that your rights have been violated. Therefore, they're passing this letter on to you so that you could then that's then your cue to go and find an attorney and hire an attorney to file your lawsuit. So let me ask you this, and this is off topic because I just wrote this down as you were talking. In your experience, when educators who have filed grievances or filed EEOC complaints against your school district and they've come back with their right to sue letter, does the district fight it, or does the District try to come to mediation and reach a settlement before it goes there, or is that the district? District legal team, I feel like, are probably some of the worst attorneys in the world. People talk about criminal defense attorneys being the worst people in the world. I think school district attorneys are the worst people in the world. Like, they probably should all burn in hell because they are terrible people. But is this a time where they come to the table and try to reach some type of settlement with the teacher? Or are they like, nah, let's square up and fight. We go into court. So in cases that I've reviewed, for the most part, if this is pretty much a slam dunk case, and what you don't want to do is you don't want a situation where all of your dirty laundry is aired, because once that person files that lawsuit, that becomes a public document. And so whatever allegations that are made, then that becomes available to the public to also scrutinize. Okay. And let's say that the organization already has a horrible reputation. Well, this certainly won't help them. And so they have to make a business decision, essentially, and determine whether or not it's beneficial for us to go ahead and settle with this person and move on, because we'll probably exhaust X Y number of dollars going through, but they also contemplate that you will exhaust all of your finances. They're hoping that the best man wins. Whoever is we're running this race, whoever runs out of money first, and usually it won't be them. It was not them. Absolutely. So they're hoping. But I would advise that if you're in this situation, that perhaps you could find an attorney that would take your case on contingency. So that could definitely help you, but it may require you to do a lot of legwork and to stay on top of things, because if you hire an attorney and they have clients that have paid their big dollar retainers, right. That's just how the world works. Okay, so again, another question that I just came up with, as you were talking. In your experience being the director, like, the buck stops with you. Have you seen discrimination even in settlement. Cases with them in thinking, again, these lower expectations that, hey, they're not going to fight. They're not going to have the money to fight, and they'll probably miss deadlines. So we'll take our chances here with this, but with someone else, because a white male, you see them more as a threat and of value. So therefore, we're going to pay you to go away. But anyone else, you know what? We'll see what happens. And in my experience, their infractions oftentimes are ten times worse than what they're getting rid of you for. I know we had a situation in a district that I previously worked for where white male did some crazy, I mean, insane stuff and didn't lose his job. And we were like, wait a minute. Had I even breathed in the students direction the wrong way, my black face would be plastered all over the media. I would be unemployed. They would have walked me off a campus that day. This person is still employed with that school district, and we kind of joke about it. It's not funny, but it's funny. He knows where the bodies are buried. There is somebody higher up the chain that he has some dirt on, and it got to be some dirt, dirt, dirt. And they refuse to let him go because they know if they let him go, he is going to unleash the beast on this school district because there's no other way that you can explain why he, number one, is not under the jail, and number two, why he's even still employed. So when we say unfair but these are those things in those organizations that those family secrets, right, that you hear rumors of, but you really don't know the truth, but you connected enough to know the truth, but those things never get out. Oh, absolutely. And what happens in situations, you connect the dots. And so you have to pay attention to the relationships. I've worked in organizations where I was shocked and learned that they've known each other or they may have family members that are related. And so, you know, you just never, ever know. And and typically, you know, when you look at organizations that lack integrity, because not all organizations operate that way, but when there is a lack of integrity in terms of operations, they all have committed crimes together, dirt together. So therefore, they will protect one another, because protecting one another, that layer at the top, nine times out of ten, once they leave the districts, they'll probably end up being millionaires versus other employees. And so they're all protecting their assets. They're protecting each other. And so you just follow the trail and follow the relationships. And that'll inform you a lot in terms on even if you're an employee that's experiencing an issue, pay attention to these relationships. And how long people have worked together, did they work together before with another place? Exactly. Because people tend to bring people that they trust, college roommates. It goes bad. Exactly. So it's never just one person. And so you have to pay attention if you see someone like that particular person that continue to get away with things over and over again. He knows something. Yeah, I'm telling you now, I have an inkling our group, we have an inkling of what we think it is that he knows. And it involves some very inappropriate things. But you know something? I don't know. I'm just putting it out there. But let's move on to talk about resources and support for educators or for other people in general in corporate America that may need this. I love your organization, Workforce Equity Solutions, because something you said earlier, people that cannot afford attorneys, retainer, contingency, whatever, have a resource in your organization where they can come to you for help with all of these things. I know we spoke the other day and you were telling me about a client that a custodian, but a language barrier. People think that organizations bank on people not being educated enough or knowledgeable enough to know what's going on. And so this particular case that this woman had against this organization, she didn't understand all of the paperwork that they were putting in front of her because of the language barrier. So your organization, even something I'm saying, something as small but as really major, something like that, your organization helps with filing paperwork, helping people understand whether or not they have a case, if they've been discriminated against, if they've been treated wrong, treated unfairly. So tell us in depth about your organization and the services that you provide with Workforce Equity Solutions. Absolutely. And thank you for bringing me on your platform to share this information. Thank you for coming. I think that with this particular case, it was very obvious to me, and that's why during that initial conversation, as I'm assessing exactly what's taking place, I use the same systems like with the EEOC. But to your point, sometimes language barriers can present a situation where that person does not really know how to advocate for themselves or know the right questions to ask. And basically what I will provide for my clients is coaching. If they're experiencing or believe that they're experiencing discrimination or harassment in the workplace, I will coach them on how to handle that situation because sometimes it could be a personality conflict, or perhaps you do have a trusted HR advisor and you want to give them an opportunity to address this issue. So I'll provide and coach them through that process and what questions to ask. And it's also important to know what not to say yes in those conversations because you want to approach a situation in a non threatening manner. And black women are already perceived as threatening anyway. Exactly. And we raise our voice. And I've seen situations like that where a white female may raise her voice, yell, just behavior is just belligerent. Whereas an African American woman may raise her voice, maybe not at the same level and not behave in that manner, but she's viewed as ghetto. Let's. Just call it what it is. There are some urban slang that used to describe her, but for this person, I wouldn't consider that person that way. I think that maybe her behavior is just maybe she had a bad day. She's passionate about the topic that she's talking, right? So I'm able to coach my clients through situations like this, because at the end of the day, we all must work to support ourselves. So I want them to be in a position where they can return back to their job, or if it's a situation where I've had one client that she didn't understand the process. And so again, with this particular person, it was a language barrier. And as I begin to ask all the questions and I'm like, wait a minute, are you the only and this happened to you? So tell me in a situation what's happened to others that didn't look like you? And so when she was able to nail all of this down, she realized she was like, wow, I didn't realize that it was happening to me. But other people that had done things that were far more egregious, they were able to return back to work. So understanding how to even approach that process, to say, hey, I would like to file a grievance, but what I want to say to anyone, that if you're in a situation and if you're terminated, do not wait. Do not wait. Time is not on your side. The clock starts to tick. You may only have ten days to file a grievance with your employer if you believe that your termination was unlawful or wrongful termination. So what do you ask for? Because I think that's something important too. When we go back and talk about policy, when we sign off on those things on our onboarding packets, we just sign off on things. But now I'm in the office and I am hit with the termination letter. What do I need to immediately ask for? Well, really and truly, there's nothing that you need to sign. Don't sign anything. Not even to say, because that's a big thing in the teacher world too. Even if we get in a write up, don't sign it or sign to say you acknowledge or that you've received it. But I've been always so don't put your signature on anything. Well, here's the thing. Even if I'm disciplining an employment, if they decide not to sign, we simply just bring a witness into the space to witness that this person refused to sign, and they sign off on it. But they're acknowledging that they were present during this conversation and know that this conversation took place. Now, in the event that let's say that there is a termination, there's really nothing to sign. And if you believe that this was unlawful, wrongful termination, what you want to do is take that document and that information and present this information to your attorney. So do I need to ask for if they already didn't give it to me. Should I have something in writing that states that companies or that district's grievance policy? Absolutely. You can certainly usually in some organizations, when a termination occurs, they may provide you with an exit letter, and that letter may include information about how to follow up, about your benefit, all of that stuff. What do they call it? A letter of separation or something like that? It's a letter of separation. And so when you're provided that letter of separation, it may also state the reason for your termination. Okay. Which I think is good to have. If they're stating, I'm terminating you for this reason, and let's just say you believe that it's unlawful. Well, now it's in right. It's in writing. You can't go back and change and say, oh no, we made a mistake. That wasn't really the issue. But do they list broad reasons on those papers? Because I've seen that some do. Failure to follow policy. Yeah. Okay. What policy did I fail to follow and how did I fail to follow the policy? So they're not going to be specific in that letter. It's just going to show that you violated your contract or you violated the policy of the company. Right. You violated the code of conduct. But what you can also ask is, I would recommend that if you are a teacher, an employment, that you act, if there was an investigation conducted, that you request your investigatory file. And so that can also if they refuse to give it to you, then you can contact the Attorney General's office and possibly obtain that file through that avenue as well. Okay, but then that's the I guess you kind of get into the whole FERPA thing with the students if it happens to involve a student with the student information. But those things have to be redacted. Right, right, okay. They can be redacted. But sometimes when they know that this situation can become litigious, they will fight and they will say and they will lie and do whatever they possibly can to make sure that that information is not released. Especially if they believe that you're planning to file a lawsuit against them. But they bank on you not doing it or not knowing. Not knowing your right. So I would definitely encourage that you would request your investigatory and your employee file as well, because that's very important information. Because if let's just say that you've never been reprimanded for anything. This is the first time that something happened. And when you compare this situation to other situations and you're like, well, what happened to the progressive disciplinary policy also? That doesn't apply to me, and this is how you challenge them on their own. That was my situation with that principle that I'm speaking of. I know she would always write me up on campus or threaten me and say, I'm sending this to HR, whatever. And then we finally went to the table, I think we ended up going to, like, level two before it was resolved. And I was like, I want to see my file. Like, this lady told me that she's put all of this stuff in my file. I've signed these documents, and I want to see them in my permanent file. Permanent file empty, right? So I'm like, oh, lady, you were just bullying me for no reason. You were just harassing me for no reason. And I hate to say it was a sister. Oh, I hate to say that, but it was. And I think that's a whole nother podcast that we could talk about how sometimes yeah, we know we battle and fight with people of other races when we are in the workplace. But the conversation that we got to get into about how we are. The worst when it comes to us. Is coming all color shapes and sizes. But it's still on site when I see here. No, I'm joking. Okay. All right, so quickly, before we wrap up, if you can recall, give us some examples, monetary amounts, examples of settlements that you have seen from teachers who have filed grievances or filed cases with you guys are against the school district, and they were found to be it was in their favor. Can't even talk right now. Let me just say this. I can't disclose that information because I don't want to get in trouble. Okay? But I will tell you that I would encourage you to stand up for yourself because it could very well be a situation where you send someone into retirement, early retirement. That's right. Because I don't think that when I see these unlawful situations occur, that organizations recognize or even care about the impact that it has on that person, not only for them to their income is gone, but additionally for them to move forward and not knowing. This is a big, small town, Houston. And so even when we think about all of the different ISDS that are around. Whereas the rule is that you're not supposed to disclose information and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what we know is people know people, and they will pick up the phone. And that's happened many times where someone's applied for a job somewhere, and they said that they were working in this position, and my roommate worked there. Let me call her. If I go through the proper channel right? And they can give you the real tea, instead of going by the policy that they're supposed to go by and determine whether or not you're employable or. Not, like they say, who's going to know? Who's going to know? I'm just calling my home girl from college. Exactly. So this is off the record. Let me tell you everything that's in his file. And this is all instead of just saying yes, they were employed here from this date to this date as a science teacher. That's it. Now I'm about to tell you when his wife came up here because he was messing with the science teacher down the hallway, I'm telling you, all the tea. And I've just made this man unemployable. Absolutely. And they can be sued for that. Too, but it got to come out. My college roommate may not tell the tea because then she's going to be in trouble too. Yeah. And we know the game and how it's played, and these are the things that happen behind the scenes, unfortunately. But I think that with all that said and done, we just have to protect ourselves. Document. Document. Document. Document. All right, well, thank you again, Ty, with Workforce Equity Solutions, we're going to put all your socials up on the site so people can know how to get in contact with you. You did a really dope webinar on July the fifth, so that was very informative. So hopefully we got some more of. Those coming up for the people that's coming up. July 5. July 5. Yes. We're not yet got my dates wrong. You all I'm so sorry. All right, so again, thank you so much. Tyler Workforce Equity Solutions, we appreciate you coming out, and hopefully you have you back. We got to make this a series or something. Oh, my God, I would love to come back. And I just want to thank you so much again for sharing your platform. And I think that we have to create these safe spaces. Absolutely. And that's what you're doing. Not only are you an exceptional educator thank you. But the work that you and the information that you're providing to the community is invaluable. Thank you. I appreciate that so much. All right, guys. Again, thank you for joining us on another episode of Reach My Forest finance the podcast. We will see you next week. Master woman just this podcast was made possible by producer extraordinaire D Francis at the legendary Lab Seven Studios in Mo City, Texas.